/linked/2017/07/18/chait-trumpcare

Comments

anonymous:
There is no need for the government to play a role in health care.
6:58 pm — Tuesday, 18 July 2017
Anonymous®:
Governments need to play a role in health care for the well being of all citizens, not just the rich.
7:13 pm — Tuesday, 18 July 2017
Not Anonymous:
I love the sweeping and unsubstantiated claims that are foundational to the whole of his argument:

"In a pure market system, access to medical care will be unaffordable for a huge share of the public."

Uh, no.

I have no illusion that the Republicans had any interest in market-based healthcare, but markets and competition would lower prices, improve quality and broaden access.
7:16 pm — Tuesday, 18 July 2017
anonymous:
> "In a pure market system, access to medical care will be unaffordable for a huge share of the public."

> Uh, no.

Care to elaborate?

You call out the author for 'sweeping unsubstantiated claims' and then just make the exact opposite sweeping, unsubstantiated claim.
8:11 pm — Tuesday, 18 July 2017
anonymous:
Prove market forces. You may not use all of civilized history as evidence. Go!
8:58 pm — Tuesday, 18 July 2017
To Be Fair:
>but markets and competition would lower prices, improve quality and broaden access.

No, markets are concerned with profitability, not people's wellbeing.

Tell me, how would a purely market-driven approach treat poor people with diseases that are expensive to treat?
9:43 pm — Tuesday, 18 July 2017
To Be Fair:
Also, we've had a market driven approach for decades. We have evidence that it doesn't work in terms of treating people or making care affordable.

Meanwhile, we also have evidence that more socialist government-driven approaches do work better for most people.

"Free market" healthcare works if you're someone like Martin Shkreli who wants to become rich from other people's suffering.
9:45 pm — Tuesday, 18 July 2017
anonymous:
> Also, we've had a market driven approach for decades. We have evidence that it doesn't work in terms of treating people or making care affordable.

lol no. when is the last time you shopped around for healthcare? did you comparison shop a procedure at multiple hospitals? have you stopped an ambulance on the way to the ER, and told them to take you to the cheaper hospital that you picked for this particular emergency?

there's no such thing as 'free market' in healthcare.
10:52 pm — Tuesday, 18 July 2017
ohm:
As far as I know, the idea of a free-market health sector will never arise, and so arguments for and against it will never be more than theoretical.

There is only single payer, or restricted market health care, and there will never be anything but.

It's a horrible dichotomy, and one that attracts the ugliest arguments from both sides of the 'free market health care' argument.

Personally, I'd like to see a country employ a truly free-market health sector, but I can't imagine it happening this century.

Even Singapore, which may have the closest approximation of a free market health care in the developed world, is a far cry from actual free market.
12:36 am — Wednesday, 19 July 2017
To Be Fair:
>did you comparison shop a procedure at multiple hospitals? have you stopped an ambulance on the way to the ER, and told them to take you to the cheaper hospital that you picked for this particular emergency?

Is this what you're actually proposing? Because that's fucking insane. I'm also not sure how you would do that if you were unconscious.

You want "free market" firefighters, too?

The idea of a pure "free market" for any of these kind of public services is ridiculous, but the US has had a much more free market approach than other countries. And other countries with more government involvement beat the US on health care effectiveness.

You're essentially saying without any evidence that even less regulation or government funding of healthcare will magically produce a much better result, when all the existing data shows otherwise.
12:58 am — Wednesday, 19 July 2017
My Optional Name:
>when is the last time you shopped around for healthcare? did you comparison shop a procedure at multiple hospitals? have you stopped an ambulance on the way to the ER, and told them to take you to the cheaper hospital that you picked for this particular emergency?

Actually, lots of people do all of this quite frequently. The reasons aren't always cost-related (requests to the EMTs to take them to a hospital of their own choosing is quite common), and yes, self-pay patients DO shop around for the best "deals".
4:35 am — Wednesday, 19 July 2017
My Optional Name:
>when is the last time you shopped around for healthcare? did you comparison shop a procedure at multiple hospitals? have you stopped an ambulance on the way to the ER, and told them to take you to the cheaper hospital that you picked for this particular emergency?

Actually, lots of people do all of this quite frequently. The reasons aren't always cost-related (requests to the EMTs to take them to a hospital of their own choosing is quite common), and yes, self-pay patients DO shop around for the best "deals".
4:35 am — Wednesday, 19 July 2017
Who are me?:
There are three years left. The press is spinning its shit for its own reasons.

The press is quick to judge because they all are Obama brown-noters. They seem to forget that legislation is a process.
6:36 am — Wednesday, 19 July 2017
knowitall:
The health care issue just hits at the heart of the american story: The American Dream.

The idea that anyone can be successful if they work hard enough.

Which therefore means if you are not successful, it's your own fault.

Which then leads us to mindset that says if you cant afford health care its your own fault. So no one should feel sorry for you as you brought it on your self.

And that is basically America in a nutshell and what makes it different from Europe. The American dream ideology is at the core of everything.

Europe accepts that society (the larger group) determines the success of the individual. Whereas America feels that the individual's success is determined by themselves.

Until you deal with the complete fallacy of the American dream you will always have these fights over universal healthcare etc..

Because in reality it opposes everything America believes in. This whole concept of self determination for the individual.

America was built on survival of the fittest. No where is that illustrated as starkly in its attitude to universal health.
9:12 am — Wednesday, 19 July 2017
My Optional Name:
>The press is quick to judge because they all are Obama brown-noters. They seem to forget that legislation is a process.

It's the Republicans who have been promising to repeal and replace since forever. It was Trump who said this would be "so easy". They are all being judged because they are all talk and no action.
1:33 pm — Wednesday, 19 July 2017
Mr. Reality:
There is an example of market-based pricing for medical treatment: elective and cosmetic surgeries and treatments. For those treatments where a third-party is not paying, costs increased only 30% over the past two decades, while for third-party paid healthcare, costs rose more than 100%.
10:58 am — Thursday, 20 July 2017
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